There’s a lot of things you can say about Pattie Ehsaei. She’s a lawyer, a finance professional, an immigrant. She’s been at the wrong end of a credit card bill and the right side of a red power suit. She’s a social media powerhouse, with over 1 million subscribers to her credit, and she’s been a correspondent for Good Morning America, MSNBC, and Forbes, to name just a few.

Now, she’s adding “author” to her resume.

Mortgage Women Magazine sat down with Ehsaei to discuss her upcoming book, Never Date a Broke Dude: The Financial Freedom Playbook. Part guidebook, part memoir, and part manifesto, Never Date a Broke Dude takes readers on Ehsaei’s journey as she immigrates with her family from Iran all the way through her current life as a content creator. Weaving together all things financial — investing, saving, credit management — with her personal story, Ehsaei’s book is a tour de force of empowerment, a love song to so many women who’ve been sidelined by a lack of financial autonomy. Throughout, Ehsaei stresses the importance of finding a man who will match your work ethic and meet your expectations for your financial future. Because, as she instructs readers, “there is no romance without finance.”

*This interview has been edited for length and clarity*

You already have a platform. Tik Tok, Instagram. What made you want to write a book?

Pattie Ehsaei: I’ve always wanted to use my mother’s story as an inspiration for women. And my mother, unfortunately, due to her financial dependence on my father, was forced to put up with mental abuse and saw no way out. Their relationship got progressively worse.

I was in Chicago. I’d gone to law school. My brother left for undergrad. And the mental abuse got worse to the point where my mother saw no way out. So she took my father’s life and then she took hers. And I did not want my mother to die in vain. I wanted to use her story not just to honor her, but as a catalyst for change in women being financially dependent from men. I was like, what’s the best way to do this?

At the end of the day, I wanted this to be a book that any woman can read really at any age, but especially earlier, when we’re making the stupid mistakes about finances and men and relationships.

This is the playbook on how to be not just financially successful, but how to navigate your relationships, how to gain your power in your life and in the workplace. And all of these things go together. And I don’t think that there’s been a book out there that encompasses a holistic approach like this.

Not only is Never Date a Broke Dude a guide book for finance, but it’s also a memoir. Could you speak to the experience of writing [your mother’s] story? I’m sure that was difficult.

PE: It was, considering there’s only a handful of people that know about the truth around how my parents passed. I think I would be lying to say there wasn’t shame. Earlier in my life, I felt a lot of shame because stuff like that doesn’t happen and it’s a poor reflection on your family.

I didn’t want to see the look on people’s faces when I told them the true story because when they say, “Okay, how did your parents pass?” And you tell them and you see the look on their face and then now you have to explain it. And I didn’t want it to be a thing. So, it was really hard for me to share it in the beginning for those reasons, but I’m like, if she’s actually going to make an impact in people’s lives, then you’ve got to tell the truth. And that’s the truth. Truth is the most impactful thing at all times.

Absolutely. I know that really stuck with me, for sure.

PE: I’m so glad to hear that because I really want it to stick with people so it’s not something they forget as soon as they put the book down.

You write, “Whoever controls your money controls you.” Could you talk about how that shows up in relationships?

PE: I’m financially independent. But that’s not always the case. Although most women work, 60% still hand over their finances to their men. And we think, “We’re independent now. We’re going to hand it over to our men.” Because there’s still this idea that men are better at finances, better at money than we are, when study after study shows that we’re better investors and we’re better with money. But we haven’t let go of the stigma.

You may be making your money, but if you’re not controlling it, there’s no point. You might as well sit at home. And 30% of women in the United States still rely on their husbands or their significant others for their finances.

You may be making your money, but if you’re not controlling it, there’s no point. You might as well sit at home.

The issue is when you rely on somebody else for your finances, that gives them a lot more leeway to do and say stupid s*** that they normally wouldn’t because they’re thinking, “Where’s she going to go?” The number one reason that women stay in abusive relationships is due to financial dependence. This is why it’s so important to control your own money.

And what are some early signs to look for in terms of losing that financial independence?

PE: Do you know where your money is going? Can you account for every single penny of your money being spent? That’s the first thing. And are you the one that has full control over your money? You have to have your money in a separate account that only you have access to. Nobody has access to that account. You can contribute to a joint account for household expenses. Another red flag is if he keeps telling you, I got it. Don’t worry about the money. I’m handling it. No, that’s a huge red flag. You need to have a complete accounting. This is like a business.

You define a broke dude as someone unable or unwilling to match their partner in ambition, drive, commitment, or work ethic. And that’s very all-encompassing. How can you tell the difference between someone who’s going through a hard time and someone who’s financially irresponsible?

PE: There’s a big difference. And I always say you don’t have to match me dollar for dollar. You have to match hustle for hustle.

I have fallen on hard times. I have lost my job. But guess what? I was out there working, getting a temporary job. When I lost my job in 2008, I had all these side hustles and I had a huge career in finance. But I wasn’t sitting on my butt going, “Let me just keep looking for jobs.”

You want to support your man. You want to stand by him. But he has to stand by himself first before you can stand by him.

Ups and downs happen in life, but hustle doesn’t change. So that if that person has lost their job, they’re going through a hard time, they can work at Starbucks. Today especially, you could do ride share, there’s so many side hustles, you can do it from your home. So, as long as you see them hustling, that’s okay. But the second that you see that you’re the only one that’s hustling and he’s sitting on the couch eating Cheetos, watching the game the whole day, that’s the red flag.

I love that anecdote you have in the book about the one man who always makes you pay.

PE: Any self-respecting human being as an adult is not going to be comfortable letting somebody else pay for them constantly. When someone is happy letting you pay for everything, that says a lot about their character.

And a lot of times women are so desperate for love. That’s why I did that. We’re so desperate for love that we’re like, “It’s okay. I have the money. I can pay for it. Just don’t leave. I want to show you how much I love you. I want to show you that I’m the ride or die chick.” And that is a huge mistake. We’ve been conditioned to believe that you want to be the ride and die chick. You want to support your man. You want to stand by him. But he has to stand by himself first before you can stand by him.

Money can be a taboo subject in relationships. How can women introduce it without feeling too materialistic? And when is too soon? I’ve definitely seen on Tinder, “I need to know your credit score.” I think that could come off as a little crass.

PE: The timing is important. Tinder? You don’t want to put that on your dating profile, come on. When you think that this person has potential to be a long-term mate, that is when you start the conversation about finances. And the way you start the conversation is first of all, you have to be confident. It has to be a business transaction and say, I see a potential in us to be in a relationship. I think it’s really important that before we go down that path that we are on the same page financially and we have the same financial goals. Here are my financial goals.

I think it’s always easier if you just put yours out there first because then that takes the armor off the other person to be like, “Look, she’s sharing with me.” These are my financial goals. I want to own a home. I want to have investment properties. I want to go on vacation every year. I want to save for retirement.

Also, I think you need to share your financial habits. Are you a saver? Are you a spender? How do you manage your money?

Be upfront with them and say, “I want you to understand me.” Finances are one of the top reasons that relationships end. Why don’t we do a financial disclosure where it’s like being naked financially? Let’s be naked financially and talk about what our financial habits are to make sure that we’re on the same page. Because if we’re not, then the relationship is doomed.

You believed that if you found the right man, he’d solve your financial problems. Not the case. Could you talk about coming to that realization and what you’d say to someone who still believes that?

PE: Women have been inculcated to believe the prince and princess fallacy, right? The little girls dress up as princesses and they’re looking for their prince. And the prince is a person who is going to come and take all your problems away, take your loneliness away, take your sadness away, support you financially. You don’t have to do anything because the prince is going to do all of that.

Unfortunately, just like every other fairy tale, it’s false. And the second that you start thinking that a man is going to solve your problems, whatever types of problems, you’re setting yourself up for huge disappointment because nobody is here to solve your problems. Nobody is here to bring happiness into your life. You are the one that has to do that for you. Your finances are yours — they’re your responsibility and nobody else’s.

We have to stand on our own two feet. We have to be whole as humans in order to have a successful relationship and to be with the right person. Because the tendency is, if we don’t feel secure in who we are, if we’re always looking for somebody else to complete some aspect of our lives, then we fall prey to people that will tell us that they’re going to fulfill those aspects in our lives. We will ignore red flags only to find out down the line that your prince is a turd.

Speaking of being secure in yourself, how do you get there? I know it’s easy to say be confident in yourself, use positive self-talk, but I know from experience, sometimes that’s easier said than done.

PE: Right. First of all, I think therapy is really important. I went through therapy to try to figure out why I was choosing the wrong men.

But I think one of the most important things that we can do that we often overlook, is to act “As if.” A lot of us don’t do that.

We think that people are naturally confident. I come off as very confident, but I have impostor syndrome constantly. And the way that we overcome it is to start actually believing and acting in accordance with who we want to be — even if you don’t believe it. Doesn’t matter. What you believe about yourself and how you act is the number one determining factor in who you become. Act confident. The first time it’s going to feel weird. The second time it’s going to feel weird. But the 10th time it’s going to feel a lot easier.

For example, a lot of people don’t have confidence asking for a raise. The first time you ask for a raise, you’re going to be flubbing. You’re not going to know what to say. But if you keep doing that, you keep working on that muscle, you’ll eventually become how you’re acting and how you’re behaving.

You mentioned the importance of dressing “As if,” too.

PE: Yeah, absolutely. Dion Sanders has a great line which I love. “When you look good, you feel good. When you play good, they pay good.” I love this quote because it’s so true. The way you carry yourself is inside out, it changes you. You shouldn’t wear clothes that have holes in them, and this is a fundamental thing, because when you do, you are telling yourself that you don’t deserve better.

Everyone’s always told me, “Why are you dressing so well at work? Why?” And I’m like, “Because I don’t want this job. I want that other person’s job.” So, if I want that other person’s job, I’ll have to look and act and behave and think exactly like that other person. So, I think that’s why dressing is so important.

Let’s talk a little bit about social media. That’s your primary platform. In the book you mention trends like girl math, trad wives, the soft boy, and you say despite these being jokes, they’re legitimately harmful. Can you speak to how social media contributes to financial illiteracy and how that can be counteracted?

PE: Social media is all about clickbait. It really is at the end of the day. You have to say something provocative in order for people to comment on it. And the more likes and comments you get, the more people see your video, the more people are going to follow you.

Even the social media trend, “I want a man in finance.” We don’t understand how harmful that is because those men in finance are typically assholes. I have been with those investment bankers.

The “I’m just a girl” trend. Do you know how much you’re minimizing yourself by saying that? Anytime you add ‘just’ in front of anything, you’re minimizing it. That’s why I never use ‘just’ in emails.

Girl math. They think it’s funny. “Haha, look, I don’t count it if it’s a return or whatever, a discount.” What you’re saying is that you don’t have common sense enough to understand finances. You’re jumping on a bandwagon.

Same thing with the tradwife trend. There’s this video that’s been going around — every time I see it, I’m going to throw up. “He’s the provider and protector. I’m the nurturer.” And it’s just, watching the woman taking care of the kids. What about the dreams that you have? You always dreamed of just cooking and cleaning and taking care of kids? Is this it? You have no other skills or desires? When women celebrate this, it takes us back to the dark ages. It takes us back to women belonging in the home, which is so dangerous. One of the top reasons that we had to suffer abuse for so long is because we didn’t have financial independence. That is such a dangerous position for any woman to be in.

What would your response be to women who say, “No, this is my dream. I want to be a stay-at-home mom.” Because, in spite of all the strides that have happened for women, that’s pretty common now. I’m 28 and I have friends and that’s their dream.

PE: I’m not going to tell anybody how to live. But the reason that dream is a problem is because you’re financially dependent on a man. So, if you’re going to have that dream, you need to be able to put some money away for yourself to do what you want with it. It’s not the dream of being a homemaker that’s bad. It’s the consequences of not being financially independent.

One of my friends is a high-powered attorney. Her husband wants her to stay at home and take care of the kids. She said, “Fine. You need to pay me my salary. You need to pay me what I’m making. I need a 401k or you’re going to put money in it so my investments will grow. You need to give me the equivalent of my finances that I’m getting at work.” Guess what? He didn’t want her to do that anymore.

Rejection is part of the game because this is what differentiates someone who gets the job from someone who never will. It’s the grit and the determination to keep moving forward despite failure. Period.

Yeah, nobody wants to be trapped. If something goes horribly wrong, that’s it.

PE: That’s the problem. No one goes into a marriage thinking they’re going to get a divorce. Everyone thinks this is going to be my happily ever after. And over 50% of the people are wrong. Those are not good odds. You have to prepare for that situation if it happens.

In the book you call failure your second favorite “F” word. I think especially in corporate America, people say that a lot: to learn, you have to fail. But I do think after enough failure it’s very easy to become discouraged. How can you reframe that?

PE: Think of it this way: You’re starting way ahead of where you were. Each time you fail, you’re still moving up, you’re getting a little closer. You’re learning a little bit more.

I have a friend that’s applied for hundreds of jobs that she hasn’t gotten, right? Rejection is part of the game because this is what differentiates someone who gets the job from someone who never will. It’s the grit and the determination to keep moving forward despite failure. Period.

The only reason that I am successful in social media is because so many people that were better than me just quit. They didn’t get the followers. They didn’t get the likes that they wanted.

Success is built on the back of failure. That’s the only way you succeed. As I mention in the book, I have never learned anything from my successes. The only time I’ve learned something is through my failures. When you succeed, you’re already good at that thing. You already know how to do it. But it’s the failures that make you a better person.

Regarding social media, you had said you made a hundred videos all at once, publishing three a day. I mean, that’s a lot of work.

PE: I know. You have to play the long game. This is no joke. This was between Christmas and New Year’s. And I locked myself in my office for days. While everyone’s going out, relaxing, I didn’t do that. I sacrificed a lot.

You have to be able to do the work. You have to do what other people aren’t willing to do. A lot of people are not willing to give up three whole days of their lives and record a hundred videos every month. Mind you, I did that for months and months and months.

If there’s one lesson you think readers should take away from your book, what would it be?

PE: A man is not a financial plan.